I am not an entirely random stranger to the people on this site. Some have actually seen me naked — right CHAR? — and while what I think about war with Iraq might not have the weight of say a Colin Powel or even a community college poli sci teacher, I do have some insight into irreconcilable differences.
There is one thing I do on a regular basis that might be of use to the folks here.
Any time you have two disparate seemingly unresolvable sides to an argument (like abortion) and neither side can possible win 100 percent, realize that neither side can possibly win because both sides have valid points. I am pro-choice, but I do have to admit there is something wrong with abortion. It IS distasteful, it might well be immoral and the same reasons I think women should make up their own minds about abortion are the same reasons why others think we should stop allowing abortions ie the uncertainty of when life starts. That is for another time.
Now, I know what you're thinking, what kind of hoodoo guru, lovey dovey shit is this from a guy who is not primarily a touchy feely wuss? None... kind of shit. But when it comes to the truth, it can often be found in the middle.
This war with Iraq IS about political BS. It is designed to distract the American populace from our own domestic troubles. War has always been used for that purpose. It revitalizes the economy, "unifies" the american populace by stifling dissent and forces us all into super patriotic war mode.
But the pro-war side is right as well. There are all sorts of good reasons to bomb the hell out of saddam hussein and the iraqi people will be the first ones to benefit from the removal of that a-hole. They wanted him gone in the 90s at the end of Desert Scam.
They are a decent people the Iraqis who have had enough of war and oppression and the question we have to ask ourselves is can we make things better by making them worse, even if it is only temporarily?
The reason Hussein is in power is because he once had our support. He wasnt removed from power becasue he makes too good of a fall guy when the shit hits the fan domestically. Clinton used him right in the middle of the Monica Lewisky mess too so dems arent immune from this kind of Wag the Dog crap.
We have a failed war on terror hitting the skids. if americans weren't debating about Iraq, they might have time to ask quiestions about why bin laden isnt dead and on display in times square.
I got to say though that War DOESNT just happen any more. Not in civilized nations. It happens in the shithole third world all the time but the big guys can and should be more cautious about war. Both sides are naive, neither one has a monopoly on that. Both want peace, one believes that peace cannot be achieved without a show of strength and the occasional war while the other side believes that pacifism and peace are always the same thing.
No matter what side you are one, put yourself in the oppositions shoes for a second and see if you can really grok their point and see the weaknesses in your own. The worst than can happen is you find out you were wrong and if all goes well, you might end up with a stronger more morally clarified version of your own position.
Anybody ever bust a nut at a strip joint?
It is this stupid "I see where you're coming from" tendency that makes me incapable of ever being convincing in debate situations. Yeah, I'm a peace-loving dirty hippie, but if I were an uptight paranoid conservative, I would feel the same way that they do.
Thanks for using the word "grok" by the way.
by Linz at February 18, 2003 12:24 PM
Well, you are right. Every side of an arguement is valid, at least to the people on that side of the arguement. The problem here is that most people have a gut reaction to this whole Iraq thing, and are willing to believe anything in order to support their opinions. Many people for the war are still angry about 9/11, so despite the fact there is no evidence to support such a claim, they believe that Saddam Hussein was behind that attack. As for the anti-war people, I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say they were against the war because George Bush "stole" the election. Okay, fine, say he did, what does that have to do with the many valid reasons for invading Iraq? Everyone is looking for a justification for their opinions, even if those reasons are illogical or just plain wrong. It's much easier to hold onto something untrue than be faced with reasoned arguements why what they feel in their hearts to be "right."
by mg at February 18, 2003 1:05 PM
I was waiting for the stripper reference, filtering through all this Sodom and Gomorrah, USA is Assyria, and yes, as always, Eff, you came through in the last sentence. I've never busted a nut at a strip joint, but I get hard at times when they rub their ass backwards on your silly penis...Oh, the sister's of mercy, they are not departed or gone... I'm proud to say that I got a stripper jealous because I used to be her regular, then I switched to a smaller brunette... umm about all the great debates of modern history: 1% is Valid, 99% is Rabble Rousing.
by LOCKHEED at February 18, 2003 4:32 PM
I dont' consider myself a war monger by any means. But considering the current world climate, and the way we've (The U.S.) been targeted by terrorists, I think a show of force is just what the doctor ordered. You cannot reason with people who have little value for human life. Saddam Hussien is exactly the kind of evil Eff described in another article. Christ the man Gassed his own people! And while he builds Palaces that span X number of square miles, his people are hungry, sick and dying. Is he in league with Al Queda? Who knows, but do we really want to find out? It's obvious he's deceived and continues to decieve the world with regards to his weapons status. We need to show this type of evil that its time is up. Saddam is not unlike Hitler, and we all know what happened while he remained unchecked. The time is NOW to say STOP.
Never busted a nut, but came pretty damn close.
by Dutchwhiskey at February 18, 2003 4:47 PM
Amen, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Myself I feel a lot more threatened by Osama and his ilk than Saddam. I'd also much rather talk about strippers or something.
by Anna at February 18, 2003 6:20 PM
Dutchy my bro'. Ready to re-enlist yet? Seriously though, Saddam Hussein is a terrorist as surely as any member of Al Queda. Just because he is the dictator of a country doesn't exempt him from justice. I've said this in another post but, is he connected with Al Queda? I haven't seen proof yet. Would he support them, or any other group, hell bent on harming American citizens, if he could do it behind the scenes? I would bet my life yes. Either the peaceful nations of the world need to be ready to back up resolutions, and other diplomatic solutions, with force or lose all credibility. If you're walking to the bus stop, every day, and this guy tells you he's going to kick your ass every time you pass him, for eleven years, but never does anything you'll eventually push him out of your mind and ignore him. Unfortunately, some people only understand violence and conflict. I wish that wasn't the way it is but Saddam Hussein wouldn't be in this position if he hadn't committed atrocities against the Kurds and invaded Kuwait. He deserves what he gets and it's a shame that some innocent people are going to have to die for it just like more innocent Americans will have to die before this "war on terror" is over. I hope a peaceful resolution presents itself but I'm very pessimistic.
Remember Bottoms Up Dutchy? Old Milwaukee on tap and old strippers who have been put out to pasture. It doesn't get any better than that.
by EZY at February 19, 2003 2:43 PM
God I love this country. You girls rock! Dear Effenheimer, are you suggesting I put myself in Osama's shoes to better understand his POV? You know, you're right, he does have a valid point. Fuck me! Oh, did I mention i'm half Assyrian and I too enjoy talking about strippers. Never did bust a nut, but I aint dead yet damnit. Iraq is about to experience the terrible might of the most powerful army on Earth...Do you think the price per gallon will drop afterward. I really enjoy driving my big ass Suburban. Really.
by Joseph at February 19, 2003 4:42 PM
I didn't say you had to agree with Osama bin Laden or any other crazy fuck to understand them, but consider that if the truth is as freaking obvious as two disaparate sides think then why are they so far apart? Sun Tzu said it best, know your enemy, never underestimate them.
The thruth in the middle ground here is that it these stone age country fucks hate us for serveral things and not all of them relate to how cool we are. they do hate our prosperity, they hate the way we don't keep to ourselves, they have a nice little repressive culture going they don't want us screwing up what little they have.
I don't think we can afford to be so naive as to think we are 100 percent correct 100 percent of the time especially considering how ignorant most of our countrymen are about everything going on in the world. I don't think for one second that Dick Cheney gives a shit about peace and freedom for the people of Iraq, but he knows Americans eat that shit up with a spoon so those are the soundbites we are fed. There would be an assload of moneyn to be made ina postwar Iraq with a puppet regime and Dick Cheney will, I god damn guarantee it, be working for a company after he is VP that will profit from that set up. You watch.
Let's face it, you don't think you are an asshole but if everybody you meet thinks you are one, it wouldnt hurt to consider that it might be true. That's what I meant about the truth being in the middle.
by eff at February 20, 2003 10:11 AM