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comments (31)

I would also like to announce that the Comments section of this post is Asian only. Please.

by Eviltom at August 8, 2004 10:55 PM

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Tee hee!

by Adam at August 8, 2004 11:03 PM

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I think many people are more comfortable living with people of their own race. I think it's rude that the ad was posted on Craigslist, where non-Asians would see it, and therefore feel excluded, but a lot of Americans do not realize how different foreign cultures are, and also don't realize how unwilling they actually are to respect another culture, instead of just giving lip service to the respect idea.

You may not understand this because I don't believe you think this way. But a lot of Americans are disgusted by things that are commonplace in immigrant life. Most immigrant households smell extremely strongly of food and chemicals, like the camphor from mothballs. They contain imported products which don't meet FDA, USDA, and other regulations. The members will have different concepts of what is "dirty" and what is "clean" than you do. The members will be speaking languages you don't understand, right in front of you. I have encountered so many Americans that just drop their manners when confronted with this stuff. They feel fine saying things like, "What's that smell? It's disgusting." "Why do I have to take off my shoes?" "What did your mother just say? And what did she say now? What are you guys talking about?" "This stuff tastes disgusting." and "That [custom] is disgusting." And even the ones that try to act openminded feel compelled to ask you 20 questions about every cultural oddity they find in the house: "What is that shrine? What is that god's name? How do you say that name again? Say it again? I don't get it. So is he like Jesus or something?" Then you can't take five steps without them demanding a half-hour lecture on something. These are the reasons such ads get created. The lessors are afraid non-Asians will be intolerant of their ways. And they have to "pre-judge", as you say, because intolerance doesn't always show itself right away. I've personally heard each of the above things from Caucasians that I've known for months or years previously, and whom I'd thought were my friends.

by jean at August 8, 2004 11:15 PM

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Jean, every last thing that you say could be turned around and used as an excuse for anyone to exclude anyone else not just from apartments, but from entire neighborhoods. The claim that certain people shouldn't live in certain areas for both their own and the currrent residents' comfort is straight out of the redlining handbook. It wasn't right in the 50's and 60's, and it still ain't right today.

And anyway, the presumption that, as a white American, I just won't understand certain things and so must be excluded is terrible, and is equivalent to ME saying that I don't want any recent immigrants because they'll be ill-mannered and dirty.

Finally, if you can speak English fluently and you choose to speak another language in front of someone who doesn't speak that language, you are being rude. Got something private to say, say it in private!

by Adam at August 8, 2004 11:49 PM

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So Jean, you're saying that Americans aren't allowed to ask questions about or express an interest in cultures other than their own?

by Philville at August 9, 2004 12:46 AM

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I think you guys are being too hard on Jean. She was bold enough to say something that wasn't
PC but probably is true to a great extent.

Myself I am fascinated by the way that people of various ethnicities tend to stick together even though they need not anymore. Interracial marraige isn't that common. Hispanics tend to hang with other Latinos. They even have an entire magazine devoted to "black hair."

by anna at August 9, 2004 7:44 AM

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If the add had said "pet lovers" only, would that be prejudice? Just because being Asian (or not) is not a trait one can change, doesn't mean the person is making an extraordinary demand on respondants. For some reason, this person wants to live only with Asians. If they wanted to live only with non-smokers would you have gotten so upset? If they had only wanted to room with another woman, would you have gotten so upset?

by mg at August 9, 2004 8:00 AM

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" … every last thing that you say could be turned around and used as an excuse for anyone to exclude anyone else not just from apartments, but from entire neighborhoods."

Actually, that stuff still happens today, just not in that extreme way. There are things such as gated communities where the residents have to live and keep their homes according to the community’s laws and regulations. This is for the benefit of comfort and order for the neighbors. Unusual cultural or religious displays are almost always a no-no. This is accepted because it doesn’t keep certain people from living there, it defines how they have to keep the outside of their homes. You can still do what you want on the inside of the house.

I don’t find ads, like the one posted, to be racist at all. Your home is your safe haven, where you want to be comfortable and relax. It’s hard to do that with someone from another culture constantly doing things that you don’t understand. It puts you on edge. You wonder if they will be insulted by this or not like that. It’s your house and you have the right to decide who stays there. If you’re more comfortable with someone from the same culture as you, you don’t have to live with anyone else just to be PC.

I think you have racism and a dislike for another culture mixed up. They aren’t the same.

It’s not always white people being intolerant either. I have a friend who lives in a very diverse apartment complex. In the unit below her there is a family from another country who constantly has the smell of fried onions emanating from the place. It’s so strong that her unit smells like it, her cloths smell like it, her hair smells like it the whole building smells like it. It is equivalent to having an indoor smoker for a roommate. The smell is everywhere. Here is a family doing something that makes everyone else in the building uncomfortable. If anyone confronts them on it, they would be labeled as intolerant or racist.

by MrBlank at August 9, 2004 9:57 AM

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All of this culture talk is great, but note that that's not what the ad said. It didn't specify any culture at all, it just said Asian. It doesn't distinguish between a Korean immigrant who just stepped off of the plane yesterday and a third generation Chinese American who was adopted by Eskimos. It wasn't specific about language, about religion, about cuisine, or about anything else other than race. Ready? Repeat after me: Culture and race are not interchangeable.

And MG, if I say "non-smokers only" I have a specific expectation that my apartment shouldn't smell like cigarettes. If I ask for a pet-lover, I have the specific expectation that I won't come home to find my cat in the microwave. But if I asked for white people only, I have the expectation of .... what, exactly? What is the behavior that I'm trying to avoid or embrace?

I'm going to run an experiment. I'm going to take out an ad on Craigslist for an apartment share and specify whites only just to see what happens - stay tuned.

by Adam at August 9, 2004 10:12 AM

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I do have to criticize the ad a little bit, though. The term “Asian” is a bit loose. There are a lot of cultural differences between “Asians”. For instance, there are still a lot of Chinese people who cannot stand the Japanese because of what happened during WWII.

Maybe we should all take a cue from Seinfeld. When Elaine wondered if Jerry’s attraction to Asian women was racist, Jerry said, “How can it be racist if you like it?”

by MrBlank at August 9, 2004 10:13 AM

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oh adam. stop taking things so personally. remember we've had this talk before-- preferences are preferences. Don't act like you don't have any preferences and please don't give me that crap that there are some things in a person you can prefer and some things that are wrong to prefer. Preferences are preferences. It's nothing personal, it's nothing political so just chillll.

by ida may jay at August 9, 2004 10:52 AM

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"Culture and race are not interchangeable." I'm not sure why you'd insist on this - as they are not mutually exclusive either. There is an intersection of sets here, so in some cases they can be used as the same thing, while in other contexts or situations they refere to separate things. Given that the ad is to share a house, it's like MrBlank and Jean and Ida May Jay said, for sharing an intimate and personal space with someone - one can expect that preferences will be important. So to see them in an ad, is on par with what might see in a personal ad - where preference is everything (though you hinted you don't like it in personal ads either).
If it were an ad for a building, where it's only a solicitation to enter into an economic contract regarding housing - such that culture or race would not come into play - then I think you'd have more of a case. I live near a neighborhood that has some kind of covenant or charter banning jews, blacks, and catholics (it's historic at this point, but I didn't realize such things existed).
As for your whites only experiment, there is - for lack of a better term, the economy of cultural power, such that all racial terms are not the same in a given context. If white is the background race for an area, or has historically been more powerful than a given minority, then I would predict that it would be perceived as a threat. There are some examples of this kind of thing where the rules appear different for different races, and without historical context it appears as a paradox.

by chris at August 9, 2004 12:11 PM

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This is such an interesting topic! It was a topic of debate over Vietnamese sandwiches with some work friends.

I think Jean's point is that as a minority in the U.S., you get sick of answering certain invasive questions that are often charged with a tone of "I'm better than you." Like, "oooh, look at your little shrine to your funny little gods... how quaint!" You get sick of having to apologize for food smells or for different habits, having to justify how you live. Having to justify just being you! Curiosity can be offensive when it's always on the other party's terms. And it's not that every whitey would be that way, just that you become fatigued and would rather just eliminate that variable.

I think anyone who is a minority in a different culture feels like the odd man out. A third generation Chinese-American would feel like an outsider in China and might put "Americans only" in a rental ad (or want to, you know?). Maybe so they can play their music louder or something. My friend, who's lived here for years, went back to her home country of Cameroon and startled her friends by not being as meticulous about her appearance anymore. I know when my mom went to Japan people were somewhat overwhelming with their curiosity about her. She was the recipient of a ton of blatant staring. You know? No one likes to be constantly stared at. Well, except Courtney Love. We are always curious about other cultures, but sometimes offensively so. Another friend of mine is French, and teaches French here. She is also of Korean decent, so people here think she is joking when she says she's French!

This is all pretty random, but I guess I feel like people who feel discriminated against (or even just want to relax & stop justifying their different way of doing things) in our culture are welcome to try to stick together. Even if it seems like a vague tie like "Asians only."

by Linz at August 9, 2004 2:10 PM

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I'm not sure I find that overly racist. If the person was running a business and that was displayed in the window then, yes. This person is going to be sharing their home with someone so I believe that fact gives them the right to choose anyone they want. If they only want white people, black people, or asian people it doesn't really matter. It is their home and in the sanctity of that place you are free to do whatever you want within reason. I think it might be easier not to cross cultures when you're talking about a situation like living together. You never know, maybe this person has had some bad experiences in the past and just wants to take the easy road this time.

by Ezy at August 9, 2004 4:23 PM

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Let me ask this: If you went to one of those abundant Chinese restaraunts and were greeted thusly by a homie server: Yo, yo, yo my brother! Whassit you be craving to-NIGHT? Some spare ribs perchance?, would it detract from your Chinese food experience at all? And isn't it a bit discriminatory that practically all Chinese food servers are, indeed, Asian to some degree? And why no Hooters Guys?

by anna at August 9, 2004 6:19 PM

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Okay Linz, I can see that someone would get tired of being asked the same questions over and over. But, if I don't ask, how will I know?

by Philville at August 10, 2004 1:21 AM

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Everyone, I love your comments. They are much better than I thought I might deserve, considering the huge bunch my panties were getting into while I was writing. (Go to town, Eviltom :) ) I hope I managed to be decently impartial...

Philville, I stand with Linz's reply regarding your first comment; those kinds of questions really wear on you, as some people present them constantly, and in an aggressive, defensive, and/or dismissive manner. And it's even worse because, in Asian cultures, prying and making people uncomfortable are offensive and rude far beyond the way it is in American culture. It's like a slap in the face. Regarding your second comment, the custom is that you don't ask. You do the research on your own.

by jean at August 10, 2004 1:37 AM

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I can fully understand this type of ad, however some people may take it. If the person who is advertising has had a bad experiance with American residents then it is his/her home and hence their right to stipulate who lives there. To say that he is being racist is silly, if you had lived with a guy from Australia (like me) and he treated you and your apartment like trash and was the worst housemate you can think, of you wouldnt think twice about advertising no Australians... at least I wouldnt. I have a few asian friends and to be quite honest it would be uncomfortable for me to live with them because of the language they speak at home and the customs and smells etc. So if I was ever in the position of finding a room mate I would want someone who shares Aussie culture. I think this is simply a measure to prevent discomfort.

However I can see the alternative argument, the guy that advertised could easily have left out "asian only" and simply chosen a asian house mate without appearing to be racist... even though I dont believe he is.

by gary at August 10, 2004 2:29 AM

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And Anna, that might not necessarily be a minus at an Asian restaurant, because lots of Asian kids adore gangster and hip-hop culture. You might still get a decent plate of ribs. Non-Asian employees of finer Asian restaurants are not unwelcome, but may be required to, among other things: 1. lay low when the triads or Yakuza come for their hush money, 2. willingly use tea as a table-cleaner and disinfectant, 3. accept that a certain number of health code violations are necessary in order to prepare the finest ethnic food. And Hooters Guys? Yecch!

"But if I asked for white people only, I have the expectation of .... what, exactly? What is the behavior that I'm trying to avoid or embrace?"

Adam, I'd reference the fried-onion smell Mr. Blank mentioned. It sounds like you don't have much experience in this area. There are also strong garlic smells, the smell of kimchee, natto, durian, mothballs, boiled short-grained rice, deep-fried fish, or religious incense. The lessees in the ad you posted will probably be offended if you suggest using air freshener on these odors. If you place the ad you propose, the probability you'll encounter any of these things is drastically reduced. Some more examples: Some of my relatives still put all their used toilet paper in a paper bag next to the toilet, to be thrown away later. There is an excellent chalk made in China which kills roaches but which is also toxic, and is a gray-market item. Many Asians posess illegal prescription antibiotics. If you rent from Asians, will you report these violations? Also, what Chris said.

"Finally, if you can speak English fluently and you choose to speak another language in front of someone who doesn't speak that language, you are being rude. Got something private to say, say it in private!"

Why rent from Asians if you're already so defensive about this?

by jean at August 10, 2004 3:02 AM

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Jean, I have to stick up for Adam here. If any white person is familiar with Asian cultures, it is him. He lived in China for a number of months. He lived in Hawaii for two years. He has a master's degree in Asian studies (or something like that). He speaks and reads chinese (manadarin or cantonese, I forget) fluently. Having gone to the high school we did together (40% asian), and living in the city we live in, plus all that other stuff I mentioned, he is no stranger to the variety of asian cultures. If anything, Adam thinks he is asian. Unfortunately, he is much too tall, and white, so no one else believes him, so maybe that is the real issue here.

But, I happened to think up one more point about the ad - being that it is much better she mentioned it up front, rather than forcing a bunch of people to go check out her apartment, most of whom would not be asian, when she knows well and good already in her head that she would never want any of them as a roommate.

by mg at August 10, 2004 7:12 AM

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Philville, I hear you. I have been a cultural question asker since I can remember, and I only hope I don't offend too much... And I'm talking, like, white-suburbia no-exposure question-asker. I was fascinated by the black sorority in my freshman dorm, and when I joined them in the smoking lounge I asked tons of questions, some of which I'm sure sounded stupid or invasive. I can't help it. All I can do is apologize for accidental infractions. I do the same thing with gay friends, African friends, Asian friends, my old roommate who was handicapped, etc., etc.

Maybe it is a matter of respect. Is it Jean? Are questions okay, if phrased respectfully? You also have to read the body language of the questionee, and if they appear uncomfortable, you have to just lay off & do your own research. I try to wait til I'm a certain level of intimate with a friend before picking their brain like that...

by Linz at August 10, 2004 9:38 AM

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Adam, then, is probably the worst non-asian person to face such an ad - given his interest, familiarity, willingness to embrace, and comfort level with asian culture. No one likes to be excluded based on pre-formed notions that may not apply. My family is half mexican, though skin color is not one of the traits that carried over to me (i.e. I don't look mexican), thus I find myself in lots of situations where people's cultural expectations of me differ from reality (mostly it's people making jokes about mexicans without realizing they're talking to one).

by chris at August 10, 2004 11:28 AM

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Then Chris, what's your take on the so-called Hispanic Pecking Order?

by anna at August 10, 2004 6:41 PM

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MG, I'm glad to know this about Adam. But if this is so, Adam, why are you so upset that people might be speaking another language around you? Since you were a language student, you must understand that there are different levels of fluency in a language, and that even if someone can speak enough English to get by on the street, at school, or at work, it doesn't mean that they are comfortable expressing themselves in it. Say you did rent from these people; then they'd have to tiptoe around you every time a group of their x language-speaking friends came over and they just wanted to hang out. That would just create a lot of tension and friction. I know you really need a new place to live, and I feel for you, but people do have a certain right to self-determination.

Linz, yes, I think respect is the key. Basically, just be compassionate. Actually I'm sure you are fine on this one. Don't ask big theoretical or abstract questions; don't ask about politics or religion. Definitely do research although (not that this would ever be you) it's pretty awful how many facts a person can acquire about another person, or group of people, without managing to respect them at all. Take Anna's British-accented client that he just posted about. He was in Asia for months and was still talking about the people he met there in that horrible way.

by jean at August 11, 2004 1:46 AM

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Hispanic pecking order? Other than whatever the matriarch says goes, I've never heard of it.

by chris at August 11, 2004 11:55 AM

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Actually the Brit was in and out of there in a matter of days. And they never really figured out what was (supposedly) wrong with him. I smell a rat.

by anna at August 11, 2004 6:10 PM

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My pants are off!!!

by Eviltom at August 12, 2004 10:29 AM

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I think ninjas rock! I wish i lived with one in a San Francisco apartment on a reality show deal called Ninja & Me. I'd explain in my video diary how its not wrong to request a roommate be a ninja, thats its just a preference and indian people are stinky stink! PEACE.

by holy crap at August 13, 2004 2:22 PM

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Just like to point out that www.realultimatepower.net, the above commentor's page, is the best thing in the entire world and deserves to win, at minimum, an Academy award for awesomeness.

by Adam at August 13, 2004 2:46 PM

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Classic.

by Ezy at August 16, 2004 4:47 PM

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Hello ,

Hi and How are you doing?

My name is Thomas Willi and I am a software installation expert. I am coming for 12 months.
I am interested in renting your room for the period i am staying with an option of extension...I am capable of paying the rent with out any delay whatsoever..

I am 32 years old and i do not drink nor do i smoke,Hobbies includes Software development,Reading , listen to gospel music(but not too loud),Jogging& Excercises...I will need details of the room from you and pictures pls note that pictures are important to me because I am taking the room sight unseen .

Thanks

by Thoams willi at June 28, 2005 10:43 AM

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