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comments (22)

That's right. Quotas keep the world on track. They should extend into sexual preference too. When it comes to interior design and cutting my hair it has to be 100% gay men. No one else can do it right.

But what about lesbians? What are they good at?

by MrBlank at January 16, 2003 1:21 PM

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I was at the University of Texas, Austin, when the courts where going through basically the same case. They passed down the mandate to stop using race as a consideration when admitting new law students. The University also made sweeping changes to their undergraduate admission. Of course, minority admissions dropped dramatically. Although, I read some where that the number have come back and the initial drop was due to a backlash from minorities against the decision and not as a result of actual admission policies.

Now, I understand your post was witty and satirical (and very funny too, by the way), but I'd like to comment on the general idea of affirmative action. I believe admission should be based on merit and not on race. On the same hand, perhaps there should be special programs for those who are at an economic disadvantage (scholastically, not financially). And I don't believe for a minute that race is a factor to disadvantage, that is a stereotype and a dangerous one. But perhaps kids from lower income schools who don't quite measure up to the students from better funded schools could enter on a probation year. Then after one year, there performance could be evaluated.

I don't know. This is a sticky subject. But I do know quotas are not the answer.

by sydney at January 16, 2003 1:26 PM

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Mr B: From all the movies I've seen, women are really good with tools. Also, with using their tongues. There most be some job description that requires those kinds of special talents.

Syd: I agree 100%. Economic disadvantage would be a much more reasonable measure for special admission requirements. However, rather than putting policies in place to help college age kids make it in, why wouldn't we just work to make sure that throughout the academic experience underprivledged students have the same chances to succeed. I'm an idealist, I know, but it makes a lot more sense to not let there be a problem than to try to fix it later, right?

by mg at January 16, 2003 1:34 PM

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Mr. Blank: don't forget what you expect when you go to a poetry open mic.

mg: first of all, you're GOP?? We are SO over! Second: Equal education? That's simple! Just make sure that tax dollars get spread evenly among rich suburban schools and poor urban and rural ones. I'll tell you who'll be first in line to get that one rolling! The SUV fleets of soccer moms, who are all very giving people. They DEFINITELY think their tax dollars should be funneled away from them.

by Linz at January 16, 2003 2:18 PM

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I definitely think education reform is in order. I too am an idealist, but I also want stuff that works. Communism is a great idea, ideally. But the reality is people are assholes. If I ever have kids (This IF is bold, 24 pt type) it will have to be home school or a very progressive private. And since, I am not independently wealthy, this will be a stretch. But so worth it, considering the other options.

by sydney at January 16, 2003 3:17 PM

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MG, you racist fucker!

Since we're on the topic, I'll mention that I had the Food Network on the other day and they had on Martha Stewart doing a show on Jamaican cuisine. All her guests were gaunt and gangly black people (the real shiny ones) who didn't look like they've eaten many meals in thier lives, much less COOK the meals. In any event, I was thoroughly amused at, and insulted by, how Martha Steward looked upon her guests with utter distain. She was talking to them and giving the the evil eye at the same time. It was bizarre. She had this look in her eye that seemed to say: "Listen here mister nappy-head, the instant we repeal the 13th Amendment, I'm going to open up Slave-Mart and sell your entire village." It scared me.

by Eviltom at January 16, 2003 5:04 PM

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It sucks to comment after the suddenly expansive Eviltom. But as to the original post, it's a point well taken. Though it is odd that the top two players in the white sports of golf and tennis are black. Serena Williams won a staggering 91% of her matches in '02. Tiger Woods might as well be golfing with his rivals' gonads while they're still in the sack, for all the chance they have of winning.

by Anna at January 16, 2003 7:32 PM

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I watched the HBO Bob Costas show (whatever it's called) and on the panel was Hall-of-Famer Jim Brown, some other intellectual, and an anthropologist who proposed the "radical" theory that Blacks from certain regions were genetically predisposed to superior athleticism. His basic argument was "it seems like they are much better because they are." Well, that guy might as well have been wearing a white sheet and hood. You know, it takes a little intellectual curiosity to reveal bullshit in the first place--I can't wonder why the NBA slam-dunk contest is comprised solely of Black players without being considered a racist? The intellectual's arguement was that Blacks are dissuaded from scholastic pursuits in favor of athletics. Hockey rink...the final frontier.
By the way, Tiger Woods and Serena Williams are dominant because their FUCKED UP fathers put clubs and racquets in their children's hands before the doctor cut the cord. Tiger is so good at golf that his math prowess is largely ignored. And I would love to doink Serena Williams--something else Black guys are supposedly better at.

by douchenation at January 16, 2003 9:37 PM

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Mg, I feel a rant coming on… I teach at a “good” school in a “bad” urban county. Meaning to someone who lives outside of the highway perimeter that divides the white soccer moms and SUVs from the artsy, gay, Hispanic, black, Asian, melange that comprises urban Atlanta, that 35% of my school is white. Some are upper middle class and some are newly immigrated, non-English speaking Eastern Europeans. My high school is across the street from an expensive, my kid-couldn’t- get-into-an-ivy-league-so is-going-here-university. Thus there are wealthy neighborhoods that feed into our school and provide the student body (albeit many kicked out of private schools for "behavioral” reasons) to boost our test scores and make us a “good” school. Every day I deal with the startling contrast between students that grew up in Emory Village and those that grew up in Scottdale. The few white students that you’ll find in Scottdale speak Bosnian or Russian. In Scottdale, basically a neighborhood of projects, kids are lucky if they are living with parents. Not both parents, mind you, because that happens maybe once in 1,000 times, but a parent period. In many instances they’ll be living with Auntie or Granny. Auntie/Granny works two jobs to pay for the daughter/sister’s children living with her. They grow up with virtually no supervision. They fall asleep in class because they themselves (the good ones at least) are working 1-2 jobs themselves to pitch in at home. They couldn’t do their homework because they are watching their little brothers and sisters. They had NO ONE to read to them at night when they were little, NO ONE to help them with their homework, NO ONE to make sure they are going to school. Most of the people around them DID NOT GRADUATE HIGHSCHOOL! They have no role models. They see no success stories. They don’t know anyone that is a doctor, lawyer, nurse, office worker. The only professional people that they see are teachers who get on their case for being loud and not doing their homework, and police that arrest their friends and family members. Some of them are in gangs. Many of them see parents/guardians partaking in illegal substances.

Now I understand that this is certainly not the situation for all black students. There are rich and middle class black students at my school also. This is Atlanta, after all, home to the largest population of middle class and wealthy blacks. But, the majority of black students at my school are NOT middle class or wealthy. For those that either on their own, or with some unusual source of encouragement at home, graduate with decent enough grades and high enough SAT scores to meet eligibility requirements for a college- I say give them the 20 point bonus points. In most cases, the road they traveled to get to that point was much more difficult.

I apologize for the length of this entry.

by Shannon at January 17, 2003 10:54 AM

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No need to apologize Shan. You sort of make my point for me though. You say that in addition to the poor black kids in your school, there are also poor white kids, who are all living pretty similar lives. Why should the black kids have an advantage the white kids don't? The black kids didn't have less opportunity because of their skin color, but because of their economic situation. Race is such an arbitrary factor here. Afirmative Action seems to be something people do to make it seem like they are helping out, but all it really does is ignore the real problem. I have a problem using race as the sole factor in determining quotas. I have less problem giving kids who grew up in poor neighborhoods, and/or from schools with traditionally lower board scores a bonus in admissions procedures. What would make the most sense, however, is for universities (especially public universities (like Michigan) who really want to make a difference to go into these neighborhoods and help ensure that kids don't need special considerations, but actually get a good enough primary education to make it into college on their own. A lack of suficient primary education is the problem for underprivledged kids, not lack of access to secondary education.

by mg at January 17, 2003 11:12 AM

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My big sister's so sma-aart, my big sister's so sma-aart!

*sighs in pride*

by Linz at January 17, 2003 2:27 PM

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I sortof agree with mg, but more with Shannon.

1 thing I found interesting in the intial post is what was missing. What's the size of the freshman class at that law school? How is the size of that class not a completely arbitrary number? Primary education is universal, secondary is not. Yes, primary education needs to be improved, but so does access to secondary education, especially professional faculties, for the underprivileged.

I am one that goes for the teach to fish model. When it comes to identifiable communities, people coming into the communities helping to "bring them up" are giving young people fish. Members of that community coming back after succeeding and living with other members of the community and building a strong healthy community are teaching young people to fish.

I went to law school here in Canada a couple years back. A law school with a large "affirmative action" (not the term used here, but essentially the same thing) for natives (canadian aboriginals, indians, you know). Most of them did quite well, fit in well, and became friends with the rest of us that got in through the conventional system. I made a few good friends out of that system. Mostly though I wish they would have weeded out those in that system who did not do well, instead of pushing them through.

Do you want a lawyer acting for you who got into law school through affirmative action and then was pushed through to graduation?

by Jason at January 17, 2003 7:57 PM

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Jason, you've got it backwarks. Improving primary education in underprivleded communities is teaching people to fish. Letting a few those underqualified students (while ignoring all the others who didn't bother to apply to any univerisity) is giving someone a fish.

Here is the thing, though. Not everyone needs to go to college. It is totally unneccessary for a good portion of the population. However, everyone should get a primary education. When kids are graduating from high school (or worse, dropping out) without the ability to do simple math or read above a second grade level, there is a huge problem. Letting a few of the overachievers from that socio-economic group into college (even if they still don't have the skills to properly excell in that enviornment) doesn't solve the greater problem.

I don't want a lawyer who made it through because of AA, but there are plenty out there who made it through based on hard work. What I don't have much choice about is that common person I interact with on a daily basis need pictures of food on their cash registers because it's too hard to read the words "Big Mac" and can't add the .29 cents extra to a $2.99 combo to make it an extra value meal.

by mg at January 17, 2003 8:23 PM

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I would completely agree with you mg, if the playing field was equal. If black, white, hispanic, etc, children had the same opportunities as white children, naturally races should be granted equality in the education admissions system. But they aren’t. Now if it was a matter of a certain group being lazy or inherently bad, again, keep them out of colleges-they deserve what they get. But I don’t think that it is fair to say in a country where less than 40 years ago segregation was LEGAL- where governmental, societal, economic discrimination was ENDORSED by the government, that we now magically have equality. And just because the laws changed in the mid-60s does not mean that attitudes changed. How many more years did it take to get equality in the work place, in government, in education? We haven’t. Was affirmative action a good idea after the end of segregation? Was it necessary then? What criteria do we use to decide that it is not necessary anymore? If you are looking for equal opportunity, it does not exist. According to the 2000 census, 75.1% of U.S. population is white., 12. 3 is black, 3.6 Asian, 12.5 Hispanic. The poverty level is a measly $8,350 for a single person, $14,150 for a family of three. 9.4% of whites live below the poverty level. 22.1% of blacks, 22.2% of Hispanics, and 10.8% of Asians live below the poverty level. Blacks have more than twice the unemployment level of whites. The median income for blacks is $30,439 and whites it is $44,226. As I said in my last post, white children have more opportunities. The white children that I spoke of living in poverty are very few and far between. White children have better home lives, more money, more role models, better health care, and better schools. Michigan State cannot change the home lives of minorities. It cannot offer jobs to parents, better elementary schools, good food to eat for every child, regular doctor’s visits. It is doing what it can at its end to even the playing field. I think that is the first fair thing to happen for many of the black applicants.

by Shannon at January 21, 2003 11:19 AM

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Okay, let's get serious. I am one of those white children of privilege Shannon spoke of so astutely. My parents were able to afford five (7) years of college without breaking a sweat. Which afforded me the opportunity to....confront heavily armed, drunken poachers out in the middle of nowhere. That's why I'm encouraging my kids to learn a useful trade post-high school. You know, like auto mechanics. They average $60,000 a year.

by Anna at January 21, 2003 9:47 PM

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You seem to be missing my point Shan. I'm saying screw trying to solve the probelm at the college admissions level. Fix the problem with elementary education, and no one will need any kind of numerical advantage in admissions policy.

According to the numbers you use, despite the difference, percentage wise, there are 20 million white people living under the poverty level compared to 8 million black people. Why are those 20 million white people not afforded the same benefit of the doubt in college admissions as the black students? The problem is that elementary education in economically depressed communities is not adequate. Period. Black or white shouldn't matter.

by mg at January 22, 2003 1:04 PM

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Because the government sponsored oppression against one group of people in this country for over 200 years!

Forty years have not brought equal opportunities. How long ago was it that country clubs could exclude people based on the color of their skin, or an interracial couple could not be seen on t.v. and in some states could not marry? It wasn't until the 70's that many southern schools desegregated. If my student's parents received a terrible education at a run down school with hand me down materials from white schools, how are they to teach their children that education is worthwhile? They haven't experienced a worthwhile education. How do you make that up to African Americans? I am not a proponent of reparations. At this point, records are too convoluted. However, I am in favor of affirmative action.

Unfortunately, fixing the problem is not as easy as saying this is a bad school, let’s fix it. Education always has room for some budget cuts, and who wants to pay more taxes? And even if you fix the schools, who is going to fix the single parent/no parent homes? How do you feel about the disparities in percentages of incomes? I agree that we are going to always need people for lower paying jobs, but is it fair that a much larger proportion of those go to black people? I personally believe that the incongruity is due to lack of opportunities and our country’s history and I think that we need to make up for that now. If it was as easy as fixing elementary schools-we would have done so.

by Shannon at January 23, 2003 10:34 AM

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You ask how you make it up to African Americans who didn't receive a good primary education. The answer is to make sure their kids get a good one. Not to make sure someone else's kid gets into law school. Society is supposed to be about providing the greatest good to the greatest number of people. How does letting a miniscule percentage of African Americans into law school going to help the much larger percentage of students in schools like yours?

What do these affirmative action policies do toward equalizing things? The only thing they do is create an artificial appearance that minorities have as much opportunity as whites. The fact is, letting the small percentage of african americans into law school does absolutely nothing to change the situation in the kinds of school you work in. The problem at schools like Michigan isn't any desire to keep black students out, its that black students are as prepared to be in college. How does letting in unprepared students help anyone? The only solution is to make sure that black students have the same chance to reach the admissions stage with the same qualifications. The only way to do that is to fix primary education. I know, my mother is a teacher, that it isn't as easy as just saying their is a problem. But, you are wrong, very little has been done. These affirmative action policies have been in place for 30 years. That is two generations of students who were ignored because AA gives the false impression that something is being done. But, here we are 30 years later and schools like Michigan don't receive applications from African American students, and even have to boost up those applicants because they don't meet the basic criteria of admission. Obviosly, not much has changed over these past 30 years.

by mg at January 23, 2003 10:57 AM

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It is not just the elementary schools-but if it was, how are we to fix them? How do we get better teachers, pay them more, better books, more desks, more classrooms, smaller class sizes, more nutritious lunches, breakfasts and better after school programs in areas that don't have the tax base to support it? In many predominantly black school districts most of the households are renters which means a much lower tax base. Are we to divide up a state's taxes evenly so all of the kids truly receive an equal education? Watch the suburbanites unite in SUV power and fight that! In Atlanta we have a long narrow county that reaches across the spectrum from projects to mansions. Most of the mansion kids go to private schools, but the $300k+ parents are fighting to divide the country into north/south. Rich/poor. White/minorities. And even if we were to fix the schools and they were all equal, what about the disproportionate number of black kids whose parents are in jail, addicted to drugs or just not in their life. I have seen bright students at my school, receiving a decent education, but not able to keep their eyes open long enough to absorb it. Kids that live in Scottdale, SCD, or Clarkston, CKT, do not see a way out of their projects. They are extremely proud to live there, at least they pretend to be. They write it all over the desks, books, walls, and they get into fights over their hoods. They don't see success. They see themselves as part of a cycle and it is useless to attempt to get out. Suggest taking an advanced class to a bright student that lives in Avondale Estates (far from stately!) and they will laugh. What for? It just means more work for them and it won't do any good. That is why I feel that strait A's from a student from Clarkston shows more than strait A's from North Fulton. That student overcame adversities that the N.F. kids couldn't begin to deal with. They have more "life experience".

I am obviously as liberal as they come, and I definitely agree that we need to fix elementary schools, but to really solve the problem of economic inequality among races, we need to take a more holistic approach that includes all parts of the community. More work training and free DECENT childcare to parents. More funding for schools that are performing below par. More scholarships, grants and affirmative action to get into colleges. Students have to see success to believe it for themselves. Only by fixing the community as a whole will we make a difference.

by shannon at January 24, 2003 10:24 AM

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Hi...my first time, but I can't resist dropping in on the conversation.

I too am a supporter of affirmative action for many of the reasons mentioned above, but wanted to throw in a few more thoughts...

This "Score" system used in many admissions procedures is treated like it is FACT, TRUE, RIGHTEOUS, and an honest measure of ABILITY. In fact, it is often based on measures that have proven biases and innacuracies. Most standardized test do not measure intellegence or ability. Instead, they test the kinds of skills and knowledge that are found in middle and upperclass families, where parents are professionals (Disporportionatly in this country, those are white and Asian). I have been a math and verbal SAT tutor for 5 years - you can buy the score pretty easitly, although it don't come cheap. I have tutored a LOT of uninspiring wealthy kids whose parents spent about $800 on private tutoring to get their kids into private colleges, while using words like "dissuade" and "omniscient" that will help their kid out tremendously. At the same time, i see kids in my classroom (public high school - same as shannon) who are bright, but don't have the same tools coming in as affluent, white kids.
The same tutoring can be bought for all entry tests, and they all cost the big bucks

Consider: The SAT is supposed to predict how well students will do in college, but it consistenly says that men will do better than they do in reality and that women and Africa-Americans will do worse that they do in reality. Yet it is the standard of college admissions.

SO, don't treat the number systems like they are sent down from on high and therefore unquestionable - they are very falllible.

Secondly, the job of the admissions process is to create a class that brings a lot to the table, that can learn from each other, etc. I value and appreciate a community with diversity -- and if that means that things aren't "fair" by the (fallible) numbers, tough. To me, it is worth sacrificing the illusion (because that is all it is) of an objective system to obtain a diverse learning atmosphere. I learned a lot in college and grad school from being in the classroom with people different from me -- and I intentionally selected schools that wouldn't look just like the neighborhood I grew up in to get that expreience. That means there have to be many factors that make a person "qualified" -- including race and national background.

Third, somebody has to be the lawyer, doctor, nurse, accountant, businessperson, teacher, etc. in African-American communities and other low income communities. In all honestly, it is people from those communities who will likely go back to them and set up shop. That is a societal need that must be filled (unless we seek the further ghettoization of the poor) and the best way to see that happen is to ensure that people from those communities get the education they need to be productive leaders.

Two other comments:
I find it hard to muster sympathy for these rejects who complain at the first sign of difficulty. Cry me a river. If people got everything they really earned and deserved, we would see a lot of successful people in the gutter and a lot of struggling folks doing better. I have spent many years working in the poorest black communities in Georgia with people who blow me away with their street smart and willingness to give. If this reject lawyer lived their lives for one day, he'd beg and plead to get back all the priviledges he has. Suck it up, crybaby.

Also, FYI - the group who has consistently benefitted the most from affirmative action programs has been white women. Hmmm...why are we never attacked in these debates

Sorry to be so long and academic!

Smooches,
becca

by Red Hot at January 24, 2003 2:27 PM

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i think this page suxs

by at November 10, 2003 9:12 PM

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man yall dont even know how we live over dere cuz some of us are living good itz just dem cricked police dat come over dere and mess stuff up

by kaykay at January 8, 2006 1:42 AM

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